Comments on: CSS doesn’t suck, you’re just doing it wrong. http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/ A Term of Endearment Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:37:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Nicole Sullivan http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-14235 Nicole Sullivan Sat, 03 Jul 2010 23:11:56 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-14235 @Rory I'm sorry you took offense. Keep in mind that this post (as I stated in the first couple sentences) was a reply to a rant on Ajaxian. I expressed my frustration that so much attention is given to these perennial "css sucks" articles. I rarely rant, so bear with me. ;) @Rory I’m sorry you took offense. Keep in mind that this post (as I stated in the first couple sentences) was a reply to a rant on Ajaxian. I expressed my frustration that so much attention is given to these perennial “css sucks” articles. I rarely rant, so bear with me. ;)

]]> By: Rory http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-14228 Rory Sat, 03 Jul 2010 16:03:34 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-14228 I really don’t like the second person in this rant. It felt like you were insulting me and attacking me the whole way through, even though I personally am quite comfortable with CSS, accessibility, languages that don’t compile, etc. Even people who know CSS, or at least have already "admitted their discomfort with the problem space”, might read this article just to affirm that they are on the right track – getting rid of the second person would make sure that these people don’t have to be slandered. I really don’t like the second person in this rant. It felt like you were insulting me and attacking me the whole way through, even though I personally am quite comfortable with CSS, accessibility, languages that don’t compile, etc. Even people who know CSS, or at least have already “admitted their discomfort with the problem space”, might read this article just to affirm that they are on the right track – getting rid of the second person would make sure that these people don’t have to be slandered.

]]> By: Garann http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13321 Garann Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:11:20 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13321 Sorry for commenting on such an old post, but I stumbled on this after reading your OOCSS stuff (which is awesome) and just wanted to say thanks for putting it so plainly. I've had frustrations with people hating on CSS many, many times, and have never been able to be this articulate about why they're being unfair. Nice work! Sorry for commenting on such an old post, but I stumbled on this after reading your OOCSS stuff (which is awesome) and just wanted to say thanks for putting it so plainly. I’ve had frustrations with people hating on CSS many, many times, and have never been able to be this articulate about why they’re being unfair. Nice work!

]]> By: Owen http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13218 Owen Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:56:03 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13218 While I'm sure with a lot of practice and knowledge you can get good at CSS and make it "predictable", I'd say that that is exactly the problem. I can accept that complex problems can have complex solutions that require a deeper understanding of what you're doing but learning CSS seems to mean learning its quirks and workarounds rather than learning its power. In my experience, rarely has the intuitive solution lead to the proper output in CSS. I'd rather have something more complex to program that was at least predictable and intuitive. Many people are quick to blame IE for every problem. I hate IE with a passion but I'd say that the standards themselves are to blame for all of the bugs and incompatibilities. IE may have made the biggest hash of it (by far) but every browser got it wrong, and that to me indicates that there is a problem with the specification itself. While I’m sure with a lot of practice and knowledge you can get good at CSS and make it “predictable”, I’d say that that is exactly the problem. I can accept that complex problems can have complex solutions that require a deeper understanding of what you’re doing but learning CSS seems to mean learning its quirks and workarounds rather than learning its power. In my experience, rarely has the intuitive solution lead to the proper output in CSS. I’d rather have something more complex to program that was at least predictable and intuitive.

Many people are quick to blame IE for every problem. I hate IE with a passion but I’d say that the standards themselves are to blame for all of the bugs and incompatibilities. IE may have made the biggest hash of it (by far) but every browser got it wrong, and that to me indicates that there is a problem with the specification itself.

]]> By: john http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13203 john Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:27:21 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13203 No, CSS sucks. it's a kludge to allow for multiple vendors to completely ignore the fact that a standard exists to prevent the need to make a kludge like CSS to work across multiple products. While CSS does an admirable job at its task, the task itself is the major problem. I would submit that CSS can NEVER work well, as its a solution to the wrong side of the problem of incompatible browsers and standards No, CSS sucks. it’s a kludge to allow for multiple vendors to completely ignore the fact that a standard exists to prevent the need to make a kludge like CSS to work across multiple products. While CSS does an admirable job at its task, the task itself is the major problem. I would submit that CSS can NEVER work well, as its a solution to the wrong side of the problem of incompatible browsers and standards

]]> By: Paul http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13202 Paul Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:39:03 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13202 When I read some articles, I almost feel like the people writing are completely separated from the "web" when they throw around titles involving the word "engineer." Sometimes people get way too conceptual. CSS was, is, and always will be easy for anyone who considers themselves to be even a decent web designer/developer/front-end "engineer." If it's not, don't use the title :D When I read some articles, I almost feel like the people writing are completely separated from the “web” when they throw around titles involving the word “engineer.” Sometimes people get way too conceptual. CSS was, is, and always will be easy for anyone who considers themselves to be even a decent web designer/developer/front-end “engineer.” If it’s not, don’t use the title :D

]]> By: Nicole http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13201 Nicole Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:15:00 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13201 @Jim You are right, it is still pretty fragile. I'd recommend watching my video from Web Directions North about Object Oriented CSS. Do that first, then check out the code on the OOCSS open source project on github. You'll notice that grids + templates are less than 1K. modules are around 2K. The OO approach is why it stays so light, and yet it allows a lot of flexibility. The goal is that all of the heavy lifting is done in the structure objects, which are then extended by extremely predictable skin objects. <embed src=http://d.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop/embedflv/swf/fop.swf?shareEnable=1&id=12627860&autoStart=0&infoEnable=0&shareEnable=0&prepanelEnable=1&carouselEnable=0&postpanelEnable=1 width=400 height=300 type=application/x-shockwave-flash></embed> There is an <a href="http://developer.yahoo.net/blogs/theater/archives/2009/03/website_and_webapp_performance.html" rel="nofollow">HD-ish version of the video available</a> for download from the YDN site. The example code: http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss Keep in mind that OOCSS isn't a framework, this is just an example. OOCSS is more like another language, anyone can write it, it just requires us to think in an object based way, separate structure objects from skins, and separate containers and content. @Jim You are right, it is still pretty fragile. I’d recommend watching my video from Web Directions North about Object Oriented CSS. Do that first, then check out the code on the OOCSS open source project on github. You’ll notice that grids + templates are less than 1K. modules are around 2K. The OO approach is why it stays so light, and yet it allows a lot of flexibility. The goal is that all of the heavy lifting is done in the structure objects, which are then extended by extremely predictable skin objects.


There is an HD-ish version of the video available for download from the YDN site.

The example code:
http://wiki.github.com/stubbornella/oocss

Keep in mind that OOCSS isn’t a framework, this is just an example. OOCSS is more like another language, anyone can write it, it just requires us to think in an object based way, separate structure objects from skins, and separate containers and content.

]]> By: Jim http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13200 Jim Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:02:07 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13200 ... but it still seems pretty fragile. … but it still seems pretty fragile.

]]> By: Jim http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13199 Jim Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:00:04 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13199 OK so CSS doesn't suck and it is different (ie not just another programming language). So how do you make it "... predictable, scalable, modular and even object oriented."?? I have made attempts at getting there but it still seems pretty. OK so CSS doesn’t suck and it is different (ie not just another programming language). So how do you make it “… predictable, scalable, modular and even object oriented.”?? I have made attempts at getting there but it still seems pretty.

]]> By: studdugie http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/02/12/css-doesn%e2%80%99t-suck-you%e2%80%99re-just-doing-it-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-13070 studdugie Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:08:05 +0000 http://www.stubbornella.org/content/?p=226#comment-13070 @Nicole: Thanx for the link. Let the healing begin! @Nicole: Thanx for the link. Let the healing begin!

]]>